Low level CPU job is too high !

[Autourdupc]

I found a way…
A VM with VirtualBox… And in VirtualBox settings you can adjust guest CPU load from 0 to 100%

I think that FaH should really update CPU management to be compatible with actual procesors.

[bruce]

Now much of your CPU is in use if you pause FAH?

FAH only manages it's own use of CPU threads, not the entire computer.

Open the processes tab of task manager. Click on the title of the CPU column (once or twice) to sort that column by CPU percentage. FAH is responsible for FahCore_xx tasks.

[alxbelu]

Bruce, the other processes doesn't really matter in this case/the case of laptops; if you reduce the number of threads the CPUs will just boost higher on the threads FAH is allowed to use. For example, I've tried adjusting my i7-8750H from the default 11 (-1) threads to 10, 8 and 6; all of these will render fan speeds at 100% and CPU temps at 90C, though with varying levels of clock rates (higher for fewer threads) and unused cores nearly idle (<5% util). For example, the i7-8750H can boost from its base clock of 2.2GHz all the way up to 4.1GHz.

As mentioned, one can always set a manual fan curve and the boost will automatically be limited by thermal limitations, but I would definitely not recommend this for prolonged use.

This is definitely another enhancement I think should be considered for future client updates; laptops are in many ways similar to smartphones and are simply not designed to run at maximum load/speeds all the time, but rather designed to allow for snappy responsiveness through temporarily very high clock rates. If FAH could limit its CPU utilization to overall load instead of threads, that would definitely make it much more suitable for both laptops and other mobile devices.

[Autourdupc]

Alxbelu… You are right !

FaH is not designed to work on laptop, and I think many users remove FaH due to high CPU load / bad CPU load management.
Using a VM, I can manage the VM CPU load so I can continue to use FaH in the VM, otherwise I would remove it from my computer.

In fact, next enhancement should be CPU management.

Regards,
Laurent.

[bruce]

Try a CPU setting of 6. That should allocate about half of your CPU to FAH plus whatever else you happen to run.

Reducing 11 to 10 because FAH cannot use 11 and the software always reduces it to 10.

[alxbelu]

Try a CPU setting of 6. That should allocate about half of your CPU to FAH plus whatever else you happen to run.

Reducing 11 to 10 because FAH cannot use 11 and the software always reduces it to 10.

I think there's a misunderstanding here; the problem of the thread is not that FAH blocks resources from other programs, the problem is that nearly no matter what amount of threads you set FAH to will be "too much" for most laptops.

Fewer threads will just be compensated with higher boost clocks, maintaining continuous operation at the maximum thermal design limit of the chipset (and likely spinning high pitched fans at 100%).

There are solutions, like limiting windows maximum processor state, but it's not very user friendly and should ideally be built into the A7 core with an option in the client.

[bruce]

What happens if you allocate 1 CPU thread?

Yes, laptops are not build for continuous, heavy compute loads, but FAHs impact CAN BE reduced a long way below 10.

[alxbelu]

Tried just now with one thread; boost flip-flopped between 3.6 and 3.95GHz, temperature dropped and increased in spikes between 70-90C, and likewise fans ramped up and down between 70-95%. I'm guessing it's because it seems to shift the load between the cores, at least that what it appeared like in the core overview (no one core had 100% utilization), where each core then probably clocks up and down, presumably causing the variation in temperature leading to variations in fan speeds and boost clocks. Without a doubt worse than just leaving everything on full.

Two threads behaved similarly, with 4 or more threads it stays permanently at 90C with fans at 100%.

As mentioned, I'm now running 10 threads at 2.1GHz generating 70C and fans at 40% (more when the rtx 2060 folds as well), which also seems to yield something like 3-4x the PPD of the 1-2 thread options.

[PantherX]

...FaH is not designed to work on laptop, and I think many users remove FaH due to high CPU load / bad CPU load management...

I wouldn't necessarily say that... I would say that laptops that a re designed for proper use (Gaming, rendering, etc.) with decent cooling system are absolutely run F@H on them. I have owned 2 laptops, an ASUS and a Sager. I installed F@H on them and ran both the CPU and GPU folding on them for years. They would sit around 90C but never had any issues. Mobile CPU/GPU can withstand a higher temperature range than some desktop counterpart.

Of course, you then have the budget laptops with bare minimum for web based activities. For those laptops, I won't expect them to be able to handle F@H since they have poor ventilation and cooling system.

...There are solutions, like limiting windows maximum processor state, but it's not very user friendly and should ideally be built into the A7 core with an option in the client.

I am aware of ThrottleStop: https://www.techpowerup.com/download/te ... ottlestop/
Where you can have the ability to "customize" the behavior of the mobile CPU. I used it on the ASUS laptop to fix my CPU speed and it worked fine. Maybe you can give that shot and see if it is of use to you.

[alxbelu]

...There are solutions, like limiting windows maximum processor state, but it's not very user friendly and should ideally be built into the A7 core with an option in the client.

I am aware of ThrottleStop: https://www.techpowerup.com/download/te ... ottlestop/
Where you can have the ability to "customize" the behavior of the mobile CPU. I used it on the ASUS laptop to fix my CPU speed and it worked fine. Maybe you can give that shot and see if it is of use to you.

Yeah, no, I know and it's not really a problem for me personally, but for friends/people I know I've avoided recommending anyone to participate in FAH because I know their laptops, while fully capable of participating with CPU power, are not designed for rendering and would end up with me needing to tech-support them into also limiting the CPU load or boost (though perhaps the primary reason so far to avoid recommending has been the lack of WUs). This is additionally something that I'd say would prohibit most companies allowing software like FAH in their laptop policies.

edit: and as mentioned, if something like an overall load/frequency limiter would be integrated, it could enable other mobile devices to participate in a different manner as well - which obviously has a huge potential.

[Autourdupc]

Alexbelu, you understood perfectly the issue.

FaH is not actually designed for laptops… And if it could manage CPU load correctly, it could be used on many more standard laptops and could be installed on many more comuters !

@Pantherx
My Laptop is a Dell 5501 Core i7 CPU, not a basic laptop, and even I use 1 or 12 cores for FaH, my fan is always running at full power and comes noisy. This is not what I expect from FaH to use my CPU at maximum power and make it noisy.
I just want FaH to use my CPU decently without burning my hardware.

[Neil-B]

Whilst there are laptops that can fold quite readily they will tend to run hot if worked hard (as designed to by the manufacturers - most home/business laptops aren't intended for heavy CPU or GPU use) - they can do it but at the cost of heat/noise with the fans running 100% … I am lucky in that my Dell 5510 Precision Xeon is actually designed to be worked hard and even when running a max 8core CPU slot and a GPU slot clears the heat generated (cores running in the 90C's as designed) and makes little noise.

Laptops because of their limited aspect format are also susceptible to their cooling system getting clogged up with dust/hair/etc and even a new laptop can run noisy if the fans are trying to suck/blow air through restricted channels/fins … Some are simply poorly designed and not able to dissipate the heat that the CPU and GPU they have can generate (again an artefact of their compact nature) - these may ramp up the fans to 100% very quickly and throttle back the CPU as far as possible - worst case scenario they then crash in one way or other.

Laptops are not alone in being pushed to their limits … FAH is all about intense compute resource and turning WUs around as swiftly as possible … FAH will use the compute resource it is offered intensely - which means that a laptop/pc/server will run probably harder than it will in virtually any other scenario … Some kit is able to be pushed the way FAH by design will push it - some is not without some adjustments/compromises - and some just won't.

There are already a number of approaches that can mitigate some of the impact of running FAH on a laptop (or in fact any kit) and these may meet the needs of some people … Whilst it would be possible (I guess) to design a FAH core that ran significantly less intensely than the current cores this would not actually help get the science done any quicker.

As to your Dell 5501 Core i7 CPU running its fan at full power (which is likely to be noisy I agree) when only one core is being used (albeit intensely) I would suggest there might be some form of "issue" with your hardware (or its configuration) which running FAH is simply revealing as I would not expect this (unless this Dell is particularly badly designed iro cooling). I am guessing you have the i7-9850H which has a TJmax of 100C as specified by Intel - the system configuration will most likely allow this to run up to say 95C before throttling - that will produce a lot of heat to shift - iirc the Dell 5501 is a thin format so the cooling channels may well be naturally quite restricted so the fans may have to work quite hard to force enough cooling - but I still wouldn't expect full fans off a single core load.

[alxbelu]

There are already a number of approaches that can mitigate some of the impact of running FAH on a laptop (or in fact any kit) and these may meet the needs of some people … Whilst it would be possible (I guess) to design a FAH core that ran significantly less intensely than the current cores this would not actually help get the science done any quicker.

The amount of unused processing power in both business laptops and other mobile devices (e.g. smartphones/tablets while charging) due to requiring workarounds rather than built in solutions is definitely something that reduces the speed of getting science done (assuming WU bottlenecks will at some point be fully resolved).

As to your Dell 5501 Core i7 CPU running its fan at full power (which is likely to be noisy I agree) when only one core is being used (albeit intensely) I would suggest there might be some form of "issue" with your hardware (or its configuration) which running FAH is simply revealing as I would not expect this (unless this Dell is particularly badly designed iro cooling). I am guessing you have the i7-9850H which has a TJmax of 100C as specified by Intel - the system configuration will most likely allow this to run up to say 95C before throttling - that will produce a lot of heat to shift - iirc the Dell 5501 is a thin format so the cooling channels may well be naturally quite restricted so the fans may have to work quite hard to force enough cooling - but I still wouldn't expect full fans off a single core load.

I've got a different laptop (also a slim one; MSI GS65 with i7-8750H, which throttles at 90C), and while not running constantly full fan speed on one thread, the result was even worse, seemingly due to the WU being pushed around on different cores. Also worth noting is that with manually throttling the CPU frequency it's generating 30-40k PPD with 10 threads @ 70C and fans at very pleasant 40-45%, as opposed to 40-50k with unbearable noise, or 10k on 1-2 threads and unbearable noise fluctuations.

[Neil-B]

Also worth noting is that with manually throttling the CPU frequency it's generating 30-40k PPD with 10 threads @ 70C and fans at very pleasant 40-45%, as opposed to 40-50k with unbearable noise, or 10k on 1-2 threads and unbearable noise fluctuations.

That is a really nice way of adapting how FAH runs on your machine - a nice solution.

Probably a good "tips and tricks" entry for the updated FAQ that I believe is being discussed in another thread.

Another example of how small adjustments can help kit cope with the intensity of FAH … I use HWMonitor (other tools exist/are maybe better) to check on my hardware and I recall a random laptop I had acquired (very low spec tbh) where this allowed me to see fans running at 100% whenever core temp got over 50C (which seemed a bit excessive as the temp then dropped below 50C and the fan kept pulsing full to virtually off (somewhat annoyingly … I recall backing the fans speeds off to 50% (much. much quieter) and the temp stabilised with no throttling at about 65C which I was happy with and was well within intel specs … My somewhat cynical thoughts at the time were that it was such a low spec that the designers never expected anyone to actually use the CPU for more than browsing and intended the noisy fan kicking in at 50C to scare people into buying a better laptop.

As to the underutilised power … simple fact that to use that power is going to make some laptops noisy … however you adjust the workload by workarounds or by a FAH core that simply runs CPUs at nominal loads which again means the laptops aren't being utilised … realistically it is not worth tying up the resource available trying to optimise FAH working on everything perfectly imo but not my call … and asking for such is perfectly reasonable (though managing expectations - it may not happen)

[alxbelu]

Also worth noting is that with manually throttling the CPU frequency it's generating 30-40k PPD with 10 threads @ 70C and fans at very pleasant 40-45%, as opposed to 40-50k with unbearable noise, or 10k on 1-2 threads and unbearable noise fluctuations.

That is a really nice way of adapting how FAH runs on your machine - a nice solution.

It's not really a nice solution though, it just happens to work for me since I don't really need to use the laptop now that I'm staying at home where I have a desktop. If I was using the laptop as my main computer I'd want the CPU to be able to boost and give me snappy responsiveness, where probably the only option would then be to put FAH in a VM like Autourdupc mentioned.

As to the underutilised power … simple fact that to use that power is going to make some laptops noisy … however you adjust the workload by workarounds or by a FAH core that simply runs CPUs at nominal loads which again means the laptops aren't being utilised … realistically it is not worth tying up the resource available trying to optimise FAH working on everything perfectly imo but not my call … and asking for such is perfectly reasonable (though managing expectations - it may not happen)

This is exactly what the "folding power slider" is supposed to do though; it's just not working as intended due to hardware evolution with more threads available and very high boost clocks intended for temporary needs.

If the power slider worked, users could adjust this to allow FAH to run without making their laptops unbearable and run on the edge of thermal designs. This could further enable big corporations of allowing the software in their policies. The potential is immense.